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 Discussing Statistics

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Dengen
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:50 am

This is just my two cents about the SC aspect of what you say, but I have a few things to say about the PLOT as well but that can be for another time. As for the SC. The way you are putting it is simple in my eyes, excepts it would be difficult to begin to stack up SC like you mentioned. But using your example with reaction time and Chidori, why dont we create a system of "Attributes" and like that, they can train themselves if that reaction time in the form of Dexterity and/or Agility. Dexterity will be good to block it with the hands, agility would be good to dodge it. With a stat ceiling for each rank, attributes will be spread evenly everywhere, yet people would specialize in different fields.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:15 pm

Having read your original proposal Dengen and recalling I was a supporter, the idea is not bad at all.  However the biggest thing is that we need actual times, speeds, and examples for what the various speeds do, otherwise your system is even more vague than our current one.  A chart of how much difference between different levels would be required, which would probably end up being fairly in-depth to be viable.  But then two thirds of our topics would turn into a "Look up my numbers compared to his.  Ok, I'm this much better than him.  I'll just keep using this stat to beat him."  While I do like the idea, I've come to realize it would turn a lot of this into a big game of D&D, just comparing stats and beating people up.

Parts of it could be salvageable for our systems, but for the time being I don't think such a layout is viable.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:39 pm

I kind of understand what you mean but then again... This will surely not be a stat based game. Like I said, everyone will have the same stat ceiling depending on rank. So with that stat ceiling, everything is virtually even matched. Using your example, say if I was a World Class Heavy Weight and Strength is where I shine along with Constitution for a strong body. I can pound on someone because of my strength, but who is to say that I can catch up if the other focused more on speed? or if I can even get close if the other focused more on stamina so he/she is able to use more jutsus? Same in vice verse. If you do have better stats then an individual on one end, chances are that individual has better stats then you in the other end.

Stats would only be compared when fists collide, Or when a grappling match is in order, and even a small chase/race in the fight. Stats can help out once and for all with these small things in roleplaying. Like this, there is going to be an underlining base to better roleplay running scenes for example, since two genin right now can run at virtually equal speeds, even if one is a taijutsu specialist. And the same would go for a chunin who is faster than a genin even though the genin is a taijutsu specialist and the chunin does nothing with hand to hand combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:54 am

Adding a stat system is a fail, and makes you closer to being like all the other big active Naruto sites. Stats systems fuck up part of the freedom of RP. As now you truly have to worry about numbers and it takes away from the rp. Second off that stat system is one that has been used on many RP sites so if your even going to impose using one at least try and make one that is new and custom. And how the Stat system fucks up the Rp is that with the current system a Genin has a slight chance of beating a Chuunin and you add a stat system that chance is pretty much gone. Another thing is with stats you always have to have a way for more people to get more points and usually that is through word training like jutsu which is a fucking drag for some people. As a person like Amatsu for example can drop thousands of words like its nothing and increase his stats drastically were as someone who dosent have enough time to do that is screwed. And adding stats to pac will fuck up the whole system. Now you do know that if you have taijutsu you get an automatic 5% Increase in speed and strength compared to those who dont use Taijutsu. So you would have an upperhand. As well as the old rules use to state only physical specs (Taijutsu,Weaponry.Kenjutsu) could have speed and strength increasing SC though that got changed with the last revamp by steph. So with your stat system a ninja could focus on genjutsu but add a lot of stats to speed or strength and be faster or stronger then a Taijutsu user.

Dengen though your idea is nice it will not work like you think it does. Maybe if it was only 1 or 2 clans per place and we limited which were open from the start. But realize that a plot like that tends to call for a lot of bloodshed and a whole bunch of members to start off with. So it would be different if half the site was waiting around to see it. But from most old members i have talked to most of them shall not be returning to this site anytime soon. And using one or 2 clans can work but it could also not work depending on how the clans are made. As what Dengen proposed could work with the small amount of members to start though we would need to build a lager base of members before anything major can happen.
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PostSubject: Discussing Statistics   Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:12 am

About creating "my own" stat system, this was put up as an example so calm down kid. I don't think it will take away from the freedom of roleplaying. It just makes it more realistic. Now instead of everyone being in the "same level," with stats, it would be the people that want it, can get stronger. With stats, we can give birth to prodigies and what not. Like you Genin and Chunin example. Stats is the best way for a genin to go against anyone of a higher rank. Right now, we are going out of whim, there is no way a genin can beat a Jounin because we just view them by their rank. But as we all know, even Naruto is a Genin still and he is kicking ass [because of his training]. Like you said, training deserves more word count, which is a "drag," am I missing something or is Word Count the name of the game lol Amatsu, if he can drop thousands of words like nothing. Then guess what. We found our self a prodigy in whatever field he would drop those thousand WC on. Its life, we have winners and losers. Everyone can find a little bit of time for training, or else they wouldn't be on a roleplay site to begin with. And you say that a taijutsu specialist has a 5% increase, but im not sure you know what that means. lmao What is 5%? nothing. So where is the upper-hand? With my stat system, a person can focus on Genjutsu and add his speed and strength, but what is the harm in having that? Like I said, if he is training on one field, means he is not on others. The taijutsu users will obviously start with a certain type of stat system with an already high Strength and Speed count, although they can train it more and if someone surpasses them by training wont mean they are also taijutsu users. Just that they got faster and stronger. Even now with this system we have Genjutsu specialist that are stronger, faster, or both compared to a taijutsu specialist just because of SC. So there is no difference.

The way I want this REBOOT to work is similar to a "Draft." Where all the Canon clans are just laid out and people choose what clan they want to be in. If they are the first to join a said clan, then they will be the clan leader. If they are the second, then so on. Until we fill up the rosters. About Bloodshed. Again, Bloodshed is the name of the game. No matter how we start Bloodshed is expected. About needing a lot of members, on the contrary. I think the reboot-timeskip will need a lot of members.  Because in reality, who will be time-skipping? No more than 5-6 characters. And like you said, old members are not coming back so what will be the point in keeping that history. I propose this plan, but not to be something that we wait on. We just keep a thread with all the clans and have people have their way with their position. This is why I said it is kindof like a draft. We ease into the game by growing in numbers. Its simple and I think NEWBIES on the site [which is what im trying to attract] will love this because it is simple and they have the potential to "become" anybody. With other plots, we would have to explain a lot of what has happened, and have an excuse to why all those things happen yet we have no stable system of anything [like teams, organizations etc.]. With this idea, I actually wanted to bring up the thought of making EVERYTHING that is Canon legal. That will surely be advertisement for the ages. lol
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:19 pm

I went ahead and split this into its own thread, as it had somewhat deviated from the original topic. People are welcome to continue discussion of this specific subject here.


Anyways, as for my response:


Dengen, the majority of our topics here end up having contests of some sort. The problem is that for a stat system as you suggest, we would need a fairly extensive interactions chart. How much strength does each point provide? How much of a difference does that make? What level strength do I need to punch a window out? Punch a hole through a door? What about how speed interacts with strength? Shooting a bullet with a slingshot won't do nearly as much damage as using a gun, and all that power comes from speed.

These are all questions that come into play. It becomes far more complicated than we could prefer for new members to learn. Our system, while more generalized and vague, allows for a much shallower learning curve for new members. Instead of it being one big game of checking stat tables, we try to allow for more fluidity.

As for your comparison to Naruto being a Genin and having all this power, something I firmly believe is that your "Title" has nothing to do with your rank. You can be called a Genin all you want, but if the government doesn't recognize you as being higher than that it really doesn't matter. In fact, I know a few people who have specifically had their title indicate they're lower than their rank. People assume too often that they two have to be the same.

Finally for a response to your idea about manage to allow all canon jutsu on the board... Yes, I do agree it'd make for great advertisement. But it is just patently unsound to do. There are certain jutsu that are plainly too powerful to allow the general populace to use on a whim. They are frankly entirely unbalanced and while that is fine for the manga/anime, where there is constant plot armor, it would promote the higher ranking players who have somehow obtained these jutsu to abuse them for fear a new player will someday have the same power and challenge them.
So instead we get these high level players who just kill the lower ranking players when they get near the same level of power. These players never get the benefits of being a high rank, because that have to restart so often, while the higher ranking characters are reaping the benefits of their abuse. Imagine if Edo Tensei was released. The first person to get it would be able to create an army. We are unlikely to have the member base to create an army of appropriate power in response. It becomes a snowball effect.
A similar argument could be made for Body Revival Technique (Superspeed training.), or Heavenly Attraction of All Creation and Heavenly Subjugation of the Omnipresent God (Straight up godmodding right there. How do you fight gravity?) These are allowable in the canon because the writer has complete control on when they're applied. In an open RP system like ours, it becomes a major problem.


So with that knowledge, I hope you understand my hesitation to allow anything like that into the board.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:58 pm

1st Paragraph Response: For those questions, I feel like you know the answer. lol We will obviously need to discuss the value of each unit in statistics, but that is as simple as common sense. As for your "speed=power Theory" That has nothing to do with strength since it is force and not strength that gives "power" to speed. Either way it really means nothing since someone with HIGH speed/agility would need to create a jutsu to produce that much force while the person with all of the strength is naturally that strong.

Quote :
As for your comparison to Naruto being a Genin and having all this power, something I firmly believe is that your "Title" has nothing to do with your rank. You can be called a Genin all you want, but if the government doesn't recognize you as being higher than that it really doesn't matter. In fact, I know a few people who have specifically had their title indicate they're lower than their rank. People assume too often that they two have to be the same.
I'm a little confused here. But are you saying in our system now, that if the government acknowledges a genin as a "jounin" or what not, then he will have that Special Characteristic? And, you're talking about de-promotion right? Like ANBU turned Jounin?

About your response in legalizing Canon. We will legalize it but obviously monopolize them properly. Using your examples, Edo Tensei. Edo Tensei can certainly have rules to it, and Im pretty sure whoever ends up with it would mind any restriction to it. As an X-amount of Bodies, or can't summon S-rank or higher unless in a life or death situation. Body Revival Technique. Why Not? Create the zero Tailed beast and create a difficult mission to get Dark Chakra and Boom. Heavenly God Techniques, easy. Give them a longer [Buffering] period. loll They do have to wait 5 minutes before using it again, you are "god" in this site, you can make them wait 5 posts or even days depending on the strength. Also, the Rinnegan user will be one of MANY that can have a few restrictions that Im sure he/she wont mind. Afterall, it is going to have to come down in trusting people to do the logical/right thing to do. They are Roleplaying to have fun, as long as we deliver that fun, no'one will disrespect.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:01 pm

Let me ALSO add the fact that I honestly don't care about the Statistic aspect. That was just thrown in because Gen was talking about a SC that sounded more of a Statistic aspect. The system that we have is bearable, and I actually like it. So we can close this argument down loll
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Quote :
As for your "speed=power Theory" That has nothing to do with strength since it is force and not strength that gives "power" to speed.
Speed and power are directly related. A slingshot provides less power behind the bullet than using the gunpowder system, and therefore causes it to move at a much higher speed. Runners have a lot more muscle in their legs than non-runners, because they need the muscle to provide the extra power to push them at higher speeds.

Quote :
I'm a little confused here. But are you saying in our system now, that if the government acknowledges a genin as a "jounin" or what not, then he will have that Special Characteristic? And, you're talking about de-promotion right? Like ANBU turned Jounin?
Some of the career SC involve obtaining IC permission. ANBU being the best example, yes. To be a member of the ANBU you have be assigned as a member of the ANBU by the Kage, or someone who has been given permission by the Kage. (Usually the head of the ANBU for the village) This would be balanced by the career giving access to powerful jutsu that are likely otherwise hidden. (In fact, in a number of boards there is a rank called "Special Jounin" or "ANBU" which falls between Kage and Jounin. This is comparable, to a point.)

When you say "legalizing canon," what I hear is "Allow anything on the Naruto Wiki on this site, as written." Canon implies it the jutsu having the same powers or applications as in the manga or anime. Yes, we could certainly change a number of these and limit them, but I feel people wouldn't appreciate that. We can't claim a jutsu to be from canon when they obviously work differently than the person has seen otherwise. Plus any changes we make to the jutsu on here that we take directly from canon, we have to explain WHY they're so much weaker now.
For the record however, I am not above the use of banned jutsu for plot purpose, but I am hesitant before handing them to someone without VERY good reason and lots of planning. It becomes too easy to abuse.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:03 pm

Alright, Amatsu's name was mentioned so let me say it outright: What Amatsu did was sickening and seriously risked fucking over the site. Whether he earned his power or not, MORE THAN HALF OF THE RP IDEAS STATED IN THE CBOX WERE ABANDONED BECAUSE "That will piss Amatsu off and he'll come kill me and all my characters and even if I take down his lackeys, he'll appear and piss on my grave"

Yeah. When you prevent RP by your sheer existence, you need to get the fuck out of the game. Earned power my ass.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:07 pm

Lofwyr wrote:
Alright, Amatsu's name was mentioned so let me say it outright: What Amatsu did was sickening and seriously risked fucking over the site. Whether he earned his power or not, MORE THAN HALF OF THE RP IDEAS STATED IN THE CBOX WERE ABANDONED BECAUSE "That will piss Amatsu off and he'll come kill me and all my characters and even if I take down his lackeys, he'll appear and piss on my grave"

Yeah. When you prevent RP by your sheer existence, you need to get the fuck out of the game. Earned power my ass.

I have strongly mixed feelings on Amatsu and his character. As Lofwyr said, there should never be any one person who is so powerful that it is impossible to defeat them. However many plots revolve around there being someone who is so powerful that the "good guys" need to gather up a team, or find a secret item, or whatever.

I do believe that if someone earns their stuff, they deserve it. But I assure you, if there is one person who manages to hold some kind of mass threat of death over the head of the board members, I will address it directly.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:31 pm

You guys realize Amatsu drove the plot of the site, as people strived to try and defeat him, even now people join a site Amatsu is on in the hope that they can defeat him in battle. He tried to remove himself from the plot numerous times but it just didn't work.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:03 pm

Elendril, get your mouth off of his bbc for thirty seconds and realize the problem with that. If he couldn't pull himself out of the plot, THEN THAT WAS A FUCKING PROBLEM. The site can't rest on the shoulders of one man.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:16 pm

Quote :
Alright, Amatsu's name was mentioned so let me say it outright: What Amatsu did was sickening and seriously risked fucking over the site. Whether he earned his power or not, MORE THAN HALF OF THE RP IDEAS STATED IN THE CBOX WERE ABANDONED BECAUSE "That will piss Amatsu off and he'll come kill me and all my characters and even if I take down his lackeys, he'll appear and piss on my grave"

Yeah. When you prevent RP by your sheer existence, you need to get the fuck out of the game. Earned power my ass.
If you chatboxx talk crap and he kills your character. That can EASILY be ruled as GODDMODING and what you say about you killing his lacky and all of a sudden he comes after you, that is METTAGAMING. If you guys let this guy do that then you guys have a problem. And stats dont mean shit when there is a strategy. But yea, if you EARN IT, then you EARN IT. Fuck all that everyone gets a trophy new age way of looking at stuff. Not everyone is a winner and get over it. I am not advocating for whoever Amatsu is but if your threatened by a roleplayer then maybe you should be one of those people that stay Chuunin for ever. You know, the NORMAL ones.

Other then that. I dont mind dying here and there if we get a reward for doing so. And he, its a game.

Quote :
I have strongly mixed feelings on Amatsu and his character. As Lofwyr said, there should never be any one person who is so powerful that it is impossible to defeat them. However many plots revolve around there being someone who is so powerful that the "good guys" need to gather up a team, or find a secret item, or whatever.

I do believe that if someone earns their stuff, they deserve it. But I assure you, if there is one person who manages to hold some kind of mass threat of death over the head of the board members, I will address it directly.
I agree that there should be someone stronger then the "good guy." But that right there discourages people. That is just asking for favoritism. Like all the other sites we are going to have the "one villain" that is secretly controlled by the Admin powers [which would make him death proof because of PLOT] and then god knows who the "good guy" would be. Maybe we should relax on PLOT stuff like that [instead let people "control" the plot, idk how this would work loll] and find a way to have people do there own thing and make history as we go.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:48 pm

Elendril is right, Amatsu brought the strongest plot ever to be on NR. Starting with the Six group, becoming Water Lord, Creating Tengakure, Creating the Tengakure Empire, and starting various wars. His plot lasted beyond a year..

We NEED people like Amatsu to drive the site forward, WITHOUT the over powered character.

PS: Dengen love ya

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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:53 pm

-shrugs- k. Let me go crank out that app and start earning my shit. Watch this....
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PostSubject: Re: Discussing Statistics   Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:04 am

Do that upp my Ninjaa
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